Talk:Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

At Talk:Open Source Male Privilege Checklist, I posed the question of whether that list and this list should be merged. Please discuss there -- thanks! Monadic 18:50, July 31, 2011 (UTC)

"Joining in appreciation of the sex object du jour without having to be gay or bisexual." is problematic

This is pretty othering to those of us who are bisexual or gay of any gender.

I'm bi, and the person who originally wrote that was bi. I think the point is that when workplace bonding involves appreciating a "sex object du jour" who is a woman, this includes the majority of men (those who are het or gay), but others the majority of women (those who are het).

If you have a better way to phrase it, please go ahead and try. But I think that as per articles like Sexualized environment, heteronormative displays of het male sexuality are a way that women in tech fields get othered that need to be discussed. 208.54.5.128 21:33, July 31, 2011 (UTC) (Oops, that comment was actually from me: Monadic 21:34, July 31, 2011 (UTC))

Removal of strange and unreasonable points

I think this list would stand a lot better if a few of its more questionable points were removed.

Here are the points, followed by my argument as to why they should be removed.

• "The ability to listen to speakers refer to an inanimate software construct as "this guy" without feeling othered and getting distracted from the content of the talk."

Anthropomorphism is a common literary technique. It is common to call ships "she," for example. If you're talking about code with some figurative intent (the daemon wants to keep your connection alive, eg), it is natural to describe it in a anthropomorphic way. Would the author of this point would find it equally objectional for the software construct to be described as "this gal"? Asking that speakers reject this technique is (in my opinion) extreme and seems unreasonable in contrast to the other good points raised in the list.

• "Being praised for the content of your writing rather than the neatness of your handwriting."

Neat handwriting is not exclusive to women. If someone comments on your good presentation, have the good grace to accept the compliment. Again, this item stands out as extreme and nonsensical compared to the others.

• "Having potential romantic partners assume from your career that you're smart and well-to-do rather than unattractive and unfeeling."

Again, this sentiment is hardly uniquely ascribed to female programmers. In fact, this is the dominant stereotype of nerds generally. The tides may be changing (slowly), but most male nerds suffer from the assumption that they are cold.

• "If you're married, having people take you to lunch without them speculating on how your spouse would feel about them taking you to lunch."

I take exception to this item because it is absolutely unrelated to programmers or the tech scene. This is supposed to be a list about male programmer privilege.

The reason I took the time to write this is because I assume the intent of the list is to educate. Points that are easily disproved or ridiculed serve to weaken the list as a whole. It's a good list, and I think it would be a better one without the points listed above.

I find this comment to be derailing. Please reflect on whether you're engaging in Oppression Olympics here. Also, on what authority do you claim the right to decide what is reasonable? To many people who haven't thought much about privilege, everything on the list would be unreasonable.

With particular attention to the first point, gender-specific anthromorphizing is othering. Like ranking women by hotness as an example of a database algorithm, it sets up an "us" and "them" dynamic. Saying it doesn't matter because it doesn't bother you is a textbook example of several of the oppressive discursive strategies catalogued under Category:Silencing tactics.

But it would be good if others expressed their opinions. Finally, please consider creating an account (which need not be tied to your identity) and signing your comments. It would show that you are committed to making this wiki a better resource, rather than just pushing a point of view. Monadic 05:08, August 1, 2011 (UTC)

I dont feel in any way oppressed, so I doubt it. I recognize my privilege. Why do you find the comment derailing? I have addressed a small few troublesome points in a rather long list.

If that point is supposed to be about othering, then it should use a different example. A presenter should feel free to refer to an object as "he" or "she". The example you give here (ranking women by hotness) is a clear example of othering, but the list item I take issue to simply refers to refering to an object as "this guy." That is not necessarily othering.

I think it is a poorly expressed point. If it's supposed to be about othering, it should be more specific. As it stands, it seems to be about anthopomorphism.

This is very much a drive by comment from me. Take or leave it. But know that I am speaking sincerely and with an agenda of making the list more compelling to the typical male reader. Again, I point out that I'm only taking issue with these few specific points, not the list as a whole. Again, I think it's a good list, and that it would be better with the removal of these points.

Thanks. -Anon.

"A presenter should feel free to refer to an object as 'he' or 'she'" -- this is your opinion, and I don't agree with it.

Fine, but that list item provides no justification or rationalization as to why this would be a bad thing (while the other items stand for themselves). Please clarify the point, either here (to satisfy my curiosity) or in the list itself (to make it actually sensical).

Many people also believe that a presenter should feel free to include images of naked women in a computer science talk. What makes this different?

To the casual observer they are totally dissimilar things. I am more interested in why you would equate the two.

You haven't substantiated it with anything other than your opinion. And I'm sorry, but "making the list more compelling to the typical male reader" sounds a lot like concern trolling. If that wasn't your intent, don't do it in the future. Feminism will never be appealing to the typical male reader -- very few people are willing to give up power voluntarily. And my understanding of what this wiki is for isn't "convincing" or "persuading", but rather documenting.

This list seems like a propaganda tool (in a positive way). It seems designed to coax the male reader into putting himself outside his own experience so that he may observe his own privilege. I think it does a good job, but these points mar an otherwise well-executed piece of prose.

I do hear you when you say that you agree with the majority of the content of the list, but I just don't think "somebody thought it was unreasonable" is a valid reason to remove content -- otherwise, this entire wiki wouldn't exist, because it goes against the opinions of many people who would find it more reasonable for us to be barefoot and in the kitchen. Monadic 05:26, August 1, 2011 (UTC)

I guess I'm just asking you to consider why I would approve of the work in principle and majority, but these few points somewhat awry. You seem more concerned with attacking me and my motivations rather than my point and purpose. (PS: you say "us", but aren't you male? Your profile links you to Tim Chevalier.)